SECOND MEETING
                        Monday, 10th June, 1974



  The Venerable Acharn began by asking the following question: "Is there
  anything useful in particular that you would like to discuss today?
  There may be many things." When those in the room remained silent, the
  Venerable Acharn began as follows:

  Sitting in meditation while listening to an explanation of Dhamma will
  greatly help to calm the Citta. I shall therefore begin with an
  explanation of the Dhamma and while you are listening please feel free
  to make use of whatever method of meditation you have practised
  before. When the Citta is calm, you will naturally receive the taste
  of Dhamma, each according to his own level of practice.

  The Buddhist religion which we profess today is the Dhamma to which
  the Buddha had attained. His name was the Samana Gotama and he
  searched for and practised many ways which he saw would bring him to
  the attainment of the Saccadhamma (truth) which was what he wanted.

  The word "Dhamma" means the teaching of a Buddha, which is a new
  Dhamma and a new era that follows upon the Enlightenment of each
  buddha and the teaching which he gives to the world. Truly speaking,
  the "real Dhamma" is always in the world right from the beginning. But
  this real, original Dhamma is never touched by that which is
  conventional or mundane (Sammuti), even though it is always in contact
  with the heart. But although these forms of Dhamma are always present
  in the world, it is we who lack the ability to see them.

  What sort of thing is "Dhamma"? There is Dhamma as cause and Dhamma as
  result, and because of this people are led to think in all sorts of
  ways until they have almost nothing to do with Dhamma or religion.

  The word "Sasana" means teaching -- the teaching which arose as the
  result of those practices done by the Buddha in searching for
  knowledge and truth, until he found it. Because he searched in the
  right way and because he attained results which satisfied his heart,
  he proclaimed this teaching to the world of those who were suited to
  receive the Sasana Dhamma -- this being the training and teaching of
  Buddhism.

  Teaching Dhamma to a world full of blindness so that it would come to
  know the truth was very difficult for the Teacher -- it was no light
  task. Before he proclaimed his teaching to the world, men already had
  various thoughts and ideas, the majority of which were contradictory
  to the Dhamma. Teaching was therefore very difficult, and being one of
  the "Great teachers of the World" was to be one who takes a great
  burden on himself. Few are the men, therefore, who wish to become a
  Buddha because ordinary men, unlike a Buddha, do not want any
  difficulties or burdens in teaching the world.

  There is no one who can teach as correctly or as accurately as the
  Buddha taught his Teaching to the people of the world, so he was given
  the name of "The Highest Teacher in the World." There is none
  comparable to the Buddha because he is superior to all human beings.
  His teaching is fully complete in both cause and effect. Nothing is
  missing from the teachings which he taught to all beings.

  With regards to Dhamma, he explained wholesome (Kusala) and
  unwholesome (Akusala), and neither wholesome nor unwholesome
  (Abyakata) Dhamma. These Dhammas are Svakkhata Dhamma -- Dhammas which
  are well-explained. The essence of this Dhamma is in the Eightfold
  Path, which is the Middle Way. If we were to compare the Middle Way to
  food, its taste would be delicious, for it would not be too salty, too
  tasteless, or too spicy. If we were to compare it to clothes, it would
  be well cut and tailored to fit the person wearing it. It would not be
  like inexpensive clothes which are mass-produced. Dhamma teaching is
  therefore the Middle Way which is appropriate in both its causes and
  its effects from the beginning to the end.

  It is not only Dhamma that is the Middle Way, but the things that one
  depends on in the world. If one tried to do everything in the Middle
  Way, it would be something worth seeing, worth admiring, worth living
  in and making use of. Those men and women, monks and novices who
  practise the Dhamma of the Middle Way would be lovely and would be
  persons worthy of respect. Both the world and the Dhamma would be cool
  and quiet and it would be a good world to live in. There would be no
  complaining that "the world is in trouble," "we are in trouble," "he
  is in trouble," as is heard at present.

  Everything is burning with trouble and we practically have no world
  left to live in. This is because people do not take into consideration
  the principles of Dhamma which are correct and good. A world divorced
  from Dhamma, that is, goodness, is therefore a world which is contrary
  to Dhamma, people are contrary to Dhamma and this contrariness to
  Dhamma has the power to produce endless worry and confusion. If we
  refuse to see faults and if we refuse to stop this opposition to
  Dhamma, this world will continue to experience Dukkha.

  Magga means the path, which the Buddha declared using the principles
  of the Middle Way. It is therefore the only path which always leads
  straight and steadfastly to Vimutti (freedom). It is never outdated,
  never having to be altered or changed in any way to keep up with
  changing situations and changing times. Even if everything should go
  on changing until they turn and turn about, the Dhamma of the Middle
  Way (Majjhima Dhamma) will still be the Dhamma which is always
  consistent. If we liken it to a medicine, it would be a medicine which
  doctors have already experimented with and proven the worth of and
  which is being used to cure disease. All Dhammas have already been
  completely tried and proven by the Buddha and there is no reason for
  doubting or being sceptical about them, for the proving of these
  Dhammas resulted in the enlightenment of the Buddha. Furthermore, all
  of the Buddha's disciples also attained the field of Vimutti by means
  of these Dhammas in the same way.

  We have come together today to train our minds to be calm and cool.
  The normal state of the mind is such that it has no Middle Way. It
  continually tends to go to extremes of thinking and imagining and its
  moods, which are connected with work and duty, are in confusion. Or,
  in other words, what the heart is used to and likes leads it away from
  what it should be doing. We must therefore make use of the Dhamma
  principles of the Buddha as a means to train the Citta to be calm --
  and however much or little one does this, it will not be without
  result.

  Whoever makes use of any method of meditation, as, for example, paying
  attention to one's breath (Anapanasati) or the repetition (Parikamma)
  of "Buddho," "Dhammo," or "Sangho," should have mindfulness to control
  the Citta. The Citta should not be allowed to wander, for if it does
  one will not get results and the Citta will not get calm. In the
  Dhamma it says "Natthi santi param sukham," which means "there is no
  happiness greater than peace" and this shows that the heart must be
  peaceful or calm to attain happiness, so we should try to make the
  heart calm. The Citta which is not calm will tend to be agitated
  continually and even when it is asleep it dreams of all sorts of
  things. If one's Citta thinks a lot it will create fantastic dreams
  and talking in one's sleep, for if one's sleep is not deep, dreaming
  will occur whereas a deep sleep is a sleep without dreams. So one
  trains to make the Citta calm down, but whether the Citta becomes calm
  and to what degree will depend on the ability of each person. If the
  Citta is very calm, there will be a great deal of happiness and this
  is the first step of the training.

  The value of the mind will then be apparent to the owner so that he
  can admire it at that time while it is peaceful, because there is
  nothing of greater value than a quiet mind. I would ask you to make
  your minds steadily overcome the difficulties and laziness, which are
  things that usually overcome us the whole time. We believe that we
  cannot overcome them because we have seen their power, but if we think
  we are able to fight them, and if we really do fight them, then the
  time will arrive when we do overcome them. We still hear of victories
  in regard to such things as sports and such like, but with regard to
  Kilesas (defilements) we only hear of giving in to them. Perhaps this
  is because we fall on our faces before the Kilesas and let them walk
  all over our backs.

  This religion shook the world because it was tested and proven by
  those whose hearts are pure. The Enlightenment of the Buddha shook his
  heart, that is, it shook the Kilesas in his heart just as if this
  world itself were shaken.

  Even though we have never seen or experienced any results from this
  religion, we will surprise ourselves when the Citta becomes calm
  because this initial training will greatly move the heart when the
  Citta and Dhamma come together in unreserved completeness of the Citta
  and of Dhamma.

  The word religion (Sasana) is not a trifling matter. It exists with
  everyone of us and is not just a thing of this person or that person,
  and it does not just belong to the Buddha. He taught us so that we
  would be good people and have worth appropriate to a human being. He
  taught that the virtue and value which comes from the religion is
  one's own wealth right up to the Path, Fruition, and Nibbana. This
  lies within the reach of each Buddhist who resolves to practice, and
  he can be one who possesses and savours the results of it endlessly.
  There is no finish or end as there is with other forms of wealth which
  are impermanent (Aniccam), unsatisfactory (Dukkham), and not-self
  (Anatta), and which someone has grabbed.

  Therefore, Buddhism belongs to each of us and not only to this or that
  ethnic group, class or caste.

  This is enough for today. I would now like to ask Ven. Pannavaddho to
  explain what he can remember.


                                 * * *


                         QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS


  Q1 M1:
  What is the Citta? Is it not attention?

  A:
  In the four Iddhipada (Paths of Accomplishment), "Citta" is attention
  and when it is combined with recollecting, it becomes mindfulness
  (Sati). Citta likes to go wherever it pleases and in whatever the
  Citta does, it is not afraid of doing wrong, nor is it afraid of
  danger. If mindfulness does not restrain it, it may stray and go for
  unchecked pleasure seeking. To make an analogy, the Citta is like an
  animal and mindfulness is like the person who trains and controls it.
  If the Citta which is possessed by Kilesas is trained and controlled
  by mindfulness, it will slowly become disciplined and the Kilesas can
  then be eradicated. When it is also accompanied by wisdom (Panna) to
  investigate and extract the Kilesas, the Citta will become clearer and
  brighter and when the Citta becomes brighter and brighter, one will
  discover that the Citta is becoming more and more subtle and that it
  has more strength and power. The Citta can become pure through the
  practice of meditation, but one cannot understand the Citta merely by
  reading books, for one can only come to know the real Citta by
  practising the way. Then one will gradually come to see the true
  nature of the Citta a little more each time until one sees it clearly
  and all doubts vanish. Practice is therefore extremely important if
  one wants to know the Citta, because one can come to know the real
  Citta absolutely clearly and eliminate all doubts by means of
  practice. There is no other way in which one can come to know.


  Q2 W1:
  People in England study Buddhism from books. They do not know that
  there is a Citta and Buddhism is not taught here according to the
  Satipatthana Sutta. The result is that people are led to understand
  that the Citta is mindfulness and wisdom. I therefore think it
  necessary for Ven. Pannavaddho to have the Venerable Acharn give us
  some understanding of the Citta.


  Ven Pannavaddho to the Venerable Acharn in Thai:
  People in this country understand "Citta" to mean thinking and that
  the Citta is divided into those forms of the Citta which come from
  seeing, hearing, -- touching; in other words "consciousness"
  (Vinnana).

  A:
  That aspect of the Citta which arises when something comes into
  contact with eyes, ears, nose, etc., and which knows and receives that
  contact is called "consciousness" (Vinnana). It arises and ceases
  together with that contact. As for the Citta which waits and knows
  these things, it does not cease together with the consciousness when
  it ceases, it does not cease even though the body ceases, for it will
  go on and take rebirth in the future. There is no end to it if the
  "sap of the heart" which is the Kilesas and Ignorance (Avijja) are
  still in the heart. But when this "sap" which is the Kilesas, has been
  removed from the heart, there is an end to continual becoming and
  birth, as happened with the Buddha and his Arhant disciples.


  Q3 M1:
  This "one who knows" which we call our selves, is not this "Atta"? Or
  is it not-self (Anatta)?

  A:
  If we compare the "one who knows" with stairs, such as the ones used
  to reach this room, then we will still have to take hold of them as
  "self" and let go of each step one after the other until we reach this
  room, which is our purpose. If at the beginning we do not cling to the
  self, we can go widely off course because we have not got any basis to
  hold on to. We have to make use of the self as the way which will lead
  us to the state of not clinging to self. Therefore, at this stage, we
  should not go thinking about self and not-self (Atta and Anatta). We
  must at first make use of self before we can reach our goal. The
  question of Atta, Anatta, and the Citta will be dropped of itself,
  just as happened when we climbed the staircase until we reached this
  room, when the problem of us and the staircase vanished of its own
  accord.


  Q4 M2:
  When we compare the Citta to the stairs, must we let go of the Citta
  in the same way we let go of the stairs when we reached the last step?

  A:
  When we have trained the Citta, we win to different levels and we let
  go of each level until we reach the last step. It then stops by itself
  and we do not have to force it. If one is going to do this, one must
  reach the level of "super-mindfulness" (Maha-Sati) and "super-wisdom"
  (Maha-Panna) because this is the level which is suitable for letting
  go of the conventional world (Sammuti) in all its aspects. From that
  point on there is no more attachment or clinging in the Citta.


  Q5 W2:
  What are some of the benefits of meditation?

  A:
  One become calm. The heart is cool, peaceful, completely rational and
  self-controlled. One does not do anything which follows one's desires
  and which is contrary to reason. One will always consider what is good
  and what is bad, both for oneself and others. It makes one become a
  person who does not feel the Dukkha of gloominess always in his heart.
  The heart will have a basic [*] principle and will not drift about
  aimlessly as it used to. It is like a man who has a job as his basic
  principle or who has food and a house to live in and depend on. Such a
  person is not troubled.

        [*] This is otherwise translated as a stake or post and means a
            foundation or anchor point.


  Q6 W2:
  How does one train oneself in meditation?

  A:
  One can use the method of Anapanasati or the method of repeating
  "Buddho Dhammo or Sangho." It depends on the nature of each person.
  The various methods of meditation will all bring calm to the heart,
  and even if one uses the word "death" as the preparatory repetition,
  this is also training the heart, for it is important that the Citta
  gets a feeling of sorrow and weariness of itself. [*] It will then see
  the evil in those things which the heart clings to, things which one
  loves or likes.

        [*] "Sorrow and weariness of oneself" means sorrow at one's own
            faults which one then sees, and weariness of the Dukkha of
            this state. This leads to detachment -- Nibbida. This is not
            the same as "sorrow and weariness" which are Kilesas and
            lead one to blame the world, and to feel depressed and
            bored.


  Why, when we train the Citta, do we fix the Citta on only this or that
  object? In fixing the Citta on the breath, one should know the breath
  as it goes in and out at the nose all the time, but this is not a
  breathing exercise. This is like using bait to catch a fish -- what
  one wants to catch is the fish. Or, if we make a simile of the Citta
  of someone who has not yet been trained, his Citta will be scattered
  in various places, like a fish net which has been cast into the water
  and spreads out wide until one can no longer see what it looks like.
  If we are going to know the Citta, we will have to take hold of the
  leader, that is, the string on the net which one uses to draw it
  together. When we pull on the leader, the rest of the net comes
  together until we can see it and hold it in our hands.

  The Citta is where we ourselves are. We are the owners of the Citta,
  but we cannot force it to become whatever we want it to be. We assume
  that form (Rupa), memory (Sanna), feeling (Vedana), thoughts
  (Sankhara) and consciousness (Vinnana) are the Citta, but in reality,
  these aggregates can all be separated from each other, and we can
  begin to see this when we practise. Then we will be able to promote
  the Citta so that it improves or deteriorates. When we have practised
  we will gradually see that the Citta is the "Lord of Birth and Death."
  If we make merit, practise generosity, guard our moral precepts and
  practise meditation, we promote the Citta so that it improves -- it
  becomes brighter and is raised to a higher level. But if we follow our
  desires and are not afraid of demerit and unwholesomeness the Citta
  will do whatever it likes. Not being controlled, the Citta will
  deteriorate and meet with nothing but Dukkha. Even in the present
  (right now), when we are downhearted and we do not know what to do, we
  let go and are then besieged by Dukkha even though we are aware of it,
  and because people do not know how to change Dukkha into happiness the
  world experiences Dukkha, which is just what it does not want.

  The Citta which has been trained, which is freed from defilements and
  which is pure must still depend on the aggregates while they are
  alive. But the duty and work of one whose Citta is pure will only be
  for the good of the world. This pure Citta is called "Arahant" or
  Arahat." The person who is an Arahant has a Citta which is entirely
  pure in all respects. His Citta is completely free from anything which
  will cause it to be born again and it will encounter happiness which
  is entirely satisfying while there is still life. When he dies, it has
  absolute bliss and it has no Dukkha, nor any involvement with the
  mundane, relative world (Sammuti).

  Thus there is a saying of the Buddha which states "Nibbanam Paramam
  Sunnam" which means "Nibbana is entirely empty" -- of all Dukkha. But
  it does not mean that when one has attained Nibbana there is nothing
  left, as the world understands "emptiness" to mean. But one also does
  not "exist" in the way that the world exists. In other words, the
  happiness of Nibbana is happiness specific to Nibbana without any of
  the mundane conventions (and the pure Citta still "is"). If the Citta
  still wears the form of the aggregates when the defilements have been
  completely eradicated, it means that it has attained to freedom.

  Freedom (Vimutti) and the mundane world (Sammuti) are very different
  from each other. It is difficult to compare the world of Sammuti which
  has mundane conventions, with what has not -- which is Vimutti.
  Buddhism has the purpose of teaching us to make our Citta pure so that
  we can experience the sublime happiness of Vimutti.


  Q7 W3:
  Yesterday Ven. Pannavaddho said that we must use energy in practising
  meditation. Today you are talking about recollecting which has to do
  with the brain. I understand then that Citta means energy and brain --
  is that correct?


  Ven. Pannavaddho to the Venerable Acharn in Thai:
  Two or three days ago I explained that one must use energy in
  meditation practice. I also explained that if one is too intense the
  mind will be in turmoil and that one must make a mental note of it.

  A:
  In learning about and practising the Dhamma of the Buddha, we must
  gradually use more and more mindfulness and wisdom from the very first
  stage of the training until one reaches the level of super-
  mindfulness (Maha-Panna). One studies and practises meditation because
  one wants to make the Citta calm for the peaceful Citta is of great
  worth. Then even if one sleeps deeply, when one wakes, the Citta is
  still bright. But one does not always sleep soundly and usually one
  sleeps badly, and dreams and talks in one's sleep, then one wakes up
  feeling dull and sleepy. In sound sleep the Citta drops into the state
  of Bhavanga, [*] the place of deep sleep, where dreaming does not
  occur, after which the aggregates are rested and energetic and the
  Citta is cheerful.

        [*] Bhavanga -- that state which the Citta reverts to when
            undisturbed.


  By entering Samadhi, the Citta can become completely quiet. The heart
  is then naturally happy and becomes strong so that in reading,
  thinking or doing other various jobs, the Citta will be clear and
  relaxed and when thinking it will be able to see through things more
  clearly than usual. Therefore, training the Citta by way of either
  Samadhi or wisdom in accordance with the principles of Buddhism is a
  good way to help one in one's work, for it does no harm to one's work
  which is contrary to what people generally understand, even though
  those who think like this are only nominally believers and know
  nothing about Buddhism.

  Therefore in working with perseverance so as to get results one must
  use hard work and determination, but these must be used differently in
  different cases. If one wants to attain calm one must use
  determination to aim for a single spot, in other words one must quell
  mental distraction. But if one is going to contemplate so as to know
  the Dhamma truths (Sacca Dhamma) one must use hard work, determination
  in observing and develop understanding in the Dhamma from various
  viewpoints. If, on the other hand, one is aiming for the arising of
  wisdom, one must use hard work and determination in the investigation
  of causes and their effects in various ways.


  Q8 W4:
  If one works and is tired and the mind is very distracted and dull,
  should one sleep or should one practice meditation?

  A:
  You should sleep, but this depends on circumstances. If it will help
  the Citta to be calm and help one to sleep well, then one should also
  practise meditation. When one practises until sleep comes, then the
  Citta will be peaceful and the body can rest. But one should not stop
  using one's usual method of practice if there is enough time to do it.


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