EIGHTH MEETING
                     Monday, 17th June 2517 (1974)


                     Tan Acharn gave the following talk

  When the Citta is calm it also wants to sleep, which is strange. In
  other words, when the Citta is calm it is contented and when it is not
  calm it is not contented. When thinking far and wide it is not
  contented and does not want to sleep, but as soon as the Citta begins
  to get calmer and calmer it wants to sleep, which means that it will
  get increasing happiness. A short while ago I was sitting developing
  calm and also felt that I would like to sleep, but I did not let it go
  as far as sleep because sleep puts both the Citta and the body into a
  state of rest.

  While one is listening to a Dhamma talk (Desana) and one becomes
  absorbed in listening to the Dhamma, and the Citta is attending to the
  words of the Dhamma talk which is its only object of attention, the
  Citta gradually becomes more and more calm; and then it tends to
  become drowsy and can go into a dreamy doze. Some people blame
  themselves saying "How is this? when I am alone or talking with my
  friends I don't feel sleepy, but why is it that when I listen to a
  Dhamma talk I want to sleep and lie down and I sit nodding out of
  control. From where does this Mara come?"

  What is this about Mara?! The Citta has never had happiness and
  contentment and as soon as it gets the "stream of Dhamma" lulling it
  into happiness, calm and contentment it just wants to go to sleep.
  Then from where does Mara come? In truth, the owner (of this Citta) is
  Mara who disturbs the owner himself all day and all night without
  getting peace and contentment until the Citta cannot sleep because it
  is not calm. One does not know the reason for this and as soon as one
  listens to Dhamma when the teacher gives a Dhamma talk the Citta grows
  calm and thus wants to sleep. One then says that it is Mara! Truly it
  is not Mara, for everybody, as soon as they become contented, want to
  sleep.

  This means that the result of the stage in which the Citta is
  sufficiently contented is that it wants to sleep, and this is the
  first stage in which one has received training.

  If the Citta has a foundation of calm, then it has work to do while
  listening to a Dhamma talk -- and the work will depend on the
  foundation or basic level of the Citta; then it will not be drowsy. If
  it has been doing Samadhi then it will be engrossed in Samadhi. But if
  it is at the level of wisdom it will become engrossed while the
  teacher is giving the Dhamma talk. One's heart will tend to follow and
  become enraptured by the object of attention (Arammana) of Dhamma. It
  is as though the Teacher helps to clear the way so that one can follow
  in his footsteps, step by step. This indicates that one has got to the
  stage of Vipassana -- which is contemplation -- and the Citta is
  engrossed in following, because of which there is no drowsiness.

  This shows how drowsiness occurs when one begins to do practice. In
  other words, the Citta does not want to drop into a state of calm, but
  as soon as it begins to get calm, the calm makes it want to lie down
  and sleep -- because this is contentment.

  In evaluating or proving a religion, and most especially Buddhism --
  which is the teaching of the Buddha -- the evaluation should be done
  with one's own heart. In what way did the Lord teach? Take up the
  Lord's method and go and practise it, or take up the method which the
  Lord taught and enter into the practice for the sake of one's own
  heart -- in other words, practise to develop one's heart.  If one's
  heart follows the way that the Lord taught, what sort of results will
  one get? One will come to know for oneself gradually and this will be
  the proof of the Buddhist teaching of Dhamma in one's own heart
  showing to one what things are good and true and what are false.

  One will come to know this gradually by grasping the principles of the
  teaching as that which points out the evidence so as to know the truth
  and falsehood which is in one's own heart -- and they are not to be
  found anywhere else but only in one's own heart.

  Generally one does not know that they are false things and one cannot
  know from where or from what the falsehood comes. When one does not
  know this one thinks that one is good and clever -- more clever than
  any teaching, more clever than Buddhism, more clever than the Buddha,
  more clever than any teacher who founded a religion to teach to the
  world. This is the assumed opinion of self even while one is being
  extremely stupid, and in fact it is one's being extremely stupid that
  makes one think how one is supremely clever.

  When one has taken up the principles of Buddhism and put them into
  practice to test and see how much and how far they are true and where
  they are false, then one will be able to know how it is with the
  principles of Dhamma which the Lord taught.

  To begin with one is not able to do this so one starts by taking it in
  brief, or taking up a short or easy method, such as the Lord's
  teaching of Bhavana (meditation). How does one fix one's attention so
  that it may be called "Bhavana."

  In the principles which are taught in the Lord's Religion, there are
  various different methods to suit the abilities of those who practise
  so that they may attain a calm and peaceful heart -- which is the
  result that comes from practice. For example, fixing one's attention
  on one's breath going in and out (anapanasati). In doing this, one
  should continually feel the breath as it enters and leaves, not
  letting one's attention (Sati) slip and wander away and not letting go
  of the Citta sending it away to other things. Just develop
  understanding and knowing of the breath -- this is one method of
  knowing about the truth and falsehood of one's own heart.

  When one's heart becomes calm one will see the falsehood of one's
  heart and at the same time one will also see the truth that is in it.
  In addition one will both see how wrong and faulty is the restless
  distracted wandering of the heart (mind) which causes one to be
  agitated and to suffer, and also the merit and virtue of a calm, cool
  heart, which is one's happiness while the heart is calm. This is
  called inwardly seeing both the wrong and the right at the same time.

  One who has determined to practise truly is bound to see in this way
  because the principles of Buddhism are the guarantee that the causes
  are correct and accurate, and that the results are satisfying, the
  Lord Buddha having been the first to experience them.

  Here is one method and only one method among all the methods to try
  out concerning the Citta so as so see results coming steadily from the
  practice. Thus to have mindfulness (Sati) and clear self awareness
  (Sampajanna) to be aware of oneself all the time. This is a way to be
  careful and watchful of the Citta, only letting it know what is within
  the field which one has established so that it has a limited boundary
  to its knowing. One does not allow it to know in a scattered and
  aimless way without any limit or boundary just as it feels inclined,
  which is the way that nearly everybody in the world acts. For
  knowledge and understanding of this sort is not the type of knowledge
  and understanding which goes towards that level which gives rise to
  happiness and contentment, enabling causes and results to be seen. One
  must therefore have a limited field in doing the practice for the
  development of the Citta by holding to the principles of Dhamma, which
  are the principles of Buddhism and the way for the Citta to go. Or
  they are the way so that the Citta will walk along those paths which
  are taught in Buddhism -- which is the way that leads in the right
  direction and not otherwise.

  If the Citta is to be set up and held by the use of one or another of
  the "Parikamma" words, one's attention must be kept on that Parikamma
  word. If it slips away to think of all sorts of things one should try
  to understand what has happened, or one should search for devices or
  methods of training it in various ways such as rapidly repeating the
  Parikamma word. But whatever device or method enables one's heart to
  gain the result of a calm cool heart and to arouse various skilful
  devices in one's heart may be considered as a right method of training
  oneself. If the Citta becomes more or less calm, then concern,
  disturbance, time and place do not get in and make connection with it.
  There is just knowing and dwelling alone, and this is happiness
  (Sukha). Whether one sits for a long time or not, there is nothing
  which comes to cause disturbances for in whatever place one sits and
  for however long, nothing comes into relationship with the Citta as
  long as the Citta does not go out and get entangled with things and as
  long as it has Dhamma as the object of attention (Arammana). There is
  a state of calm by dwelling alone, and there is "self-knowing" right
  there at that time. This is called "knowing" in the ways of meditation
  (Bhavana) -- or "knowing" in the ways of guarding the Citta. There is
  a boundary to knowing and seeing (understanding) and this is the
  method of progressing to begin with.

  However long one goes on doing the practice, one should not abandon or
  give up the method which one has been in the habit of using and
  practising but hold on to it as a foundation. Thus, for example, if
  one has been using Anapanasati, one takes the breath as the foundation
  to start with. But the skill of the Citta which has done this
  constantly for a long time and attained calm often will know things at
  a speed which is very different from normal and after just one moment
  it will have passed on. Passed on to subtlety, disappeared and gone
  utterly quiet and one will not know where the breath has gone. This
  indicates the skill of the Citta, like when one writes, if one writes
  the word "you," someone who is learning to write must think of the
  first letter, then the second and so on until it is finished; but
  after having learnt for a long time, the letters, the sounds, the
  vowels and consonants all arise together. Skill of the Citta, whether
  in Samadhi or in Panna, is similar to this -- and the Lord called it
  "Jhana."

  The four Jhanas -- first (Pathama) Jhana, second (Dutiya) Jhana, third
  (Tatiya) Jhana, fourth (Catuttha) Jhana are the Rupa Jhanas and beyond
  this are the four Arupa Jhanas, altogether making the "8 attainments
  (Samapattis)" plus Sannavedayitta Nirodha, which is the quelling of
  Sanna (memory) and Vedana (feeling). But these Samapattis are Dhammas
  that are special or connected with the characteristic abilities
  (Nissaya Vasana) of those who are inclined to go this way and they
  will occur spontaneously. But these are not Dhammas that are necessary
  to the Path (Magga) or the Fruition (Phala) in which there is the
  getting rid of Kilesas and reaching the levels and states of purity of
  heart leading to Arahantship. But however this may be, if anyone is
  skilled in Jhana, it is similar to that person who is skilled in
  writing and that is all. Thus the first Jhana, the second Jhana and so
  on -- he can immediately reach all of them because of the speed of the
  Citta. But the characteristics of a Citta such as this which changes
  its state steadily, does not go up like we go up stairs, step by step,
  for however able we are at going up stairs we do not jump several
  steps at a time, but go up one by one. But the skill of this Citta is
  such that one moment it can reach its intended goal with extreme
  rapidity. There is nothing that is faster than the heart and this
  heart is the fastest, for the more it becomes skilled in these
  functions, the faster it becomes, beyond the imagination of anyone who
  has not seen the power of the Citta of one who is used to knowing and
  seeing various things in the path of the practice of Dhamma.

  Samadhi is similar for such a person. Just sitting, once the heart has
  become accustomed to being calmed by his own skill, there is no need
  for him to find a Parikamma word to fix his attention, to compel and
  tie down the Citta and to make it enter a state of calm, for just
  limiting the Citta by means of mindfulness it immediately becomes
  fully calmed. Within just half a second it becomes calm and reaches a
  state of tranquility, nothing hinders it and it drops to the level of
  Samadhi. This is what is meant by one who has skill in Samadhi. As
  soon as he fixes his attention for just one moment it goes entirely
  through (into Samadhi), like we can write the word "you" and
  immediately read it without any need to grope and think and search for
  the vowels and consonants, spending a lot of time as we had to in the
  beginning.

  In speaking of the levels of Samadhi, when one is skilled, it is as
  described above. But please do not believe that you are skilled, or
  not skilled, for this is anticipation which goes out from yourself and
  then returns to deceive you, wasting a lot of time and preventing you
  from seeing the results in the way that you ought to. Whether one is
  skilled or not, let it be that one trains oneself in that Dhamma and
  discipline which one has been in the habit of using. This is an
  important principle, which one also uses in learning to write, for one
  writes a single letter over and over again until one is skilled at
  doing it. There is no need to anticipate the way to write all the
  other letters for in due time skill at them will grow of itself as one
  goes on practising. The method of training the heart is like this for
  skill will arise and grow in oneself.

  //PANNA//
  Panna is wisdom of the Citta. Thinking and (mentally) putting things
  together and contemplating using reason based on Dhamma in various
  ways, was called "Panna" by Lord Buddha. In other words, carefully
  examining, contemplating, investigating the elements (Dhatu), the
  Khandhas, the changes of nature (Sabhava) both externally and
  internally, going on all the time everywhere, always, for if anybody
  has mindfulness and wisdom to fix his attention anywhere the whole of
  it will be Dhamma.

  All these things are like grindstones for sharpening wisdom
  continually and all the time in every position and posture one will
  see all these natural things (Sabbava) displaying their
  characteristics, and letting one know them by way of wisdom all the
  time, and therefore Dhamma is to be found everywhere. It is not to be
  found just in oneself nor just when one sits doing meditation or
  walking Cankama, for it is there at all times if one will make it be
  there and keep it there in all situations.

  In regard to one's skill in Samadhi, or in mindfulness and wisdom,
  these will be the same as has already been explained above. But one
  cannot explain much because it becomes too involved.

  In regard to one's skill in Samadhi, or in mindfulness and wisdom,
  these will be the same as has already been explained above. But one
  cannot explain much because it becomes too involved.

  In regard to wisdom, this is vast and very strange. If one is to do
  what is truly appropriate, one should just explain to those who have a
  need to listen to that particular aspect of wisdom and this is the
  most suitable way to do it. Apart from this one may explain enough to
  be a step or a pathway so that those who are beginning to train
  themselves in investigation may follow it, as in the explanation which
  has just been given.

  The Citta can be trained, and the characteristics of the Citta are
  things which can go on altering and changing step by step. From being
  refined they can fall down and become gross again depending on oneself
  who is the owner of them, and the way in which one directs them to go.
  Thus, for example, we have trained ourselves in the moral precepts
  (Sila Dhamma) and we are at present training in meditation for Samadhi
  (Samadhi Bhavana) and this is the training of the Citta which raises
  it up to a higher level.

  If one considers the processes of the Citta, then thinking of
  everything from the point of view of reason and morality is a way to
  make one act so that one rises higher -- but there will also be things
  which one will have to get rid of from oneself. In other words, there
  are both those things that one sees to be bad which should be got rid
  of, and also those things that one sees to be right which one should
  practise and develop more and more. This may be called the practice or
  the training of the Citta to attain the level of knowing and seeing in
  which there are causes and results [*] going up steadily higher.

        [*] The literal translation from Thai which is usually rendered
            in English as "reason" is "cause/effect" or "cause/result."


  If the Citta deteriorates, knowledge and understanding change and
  become lower and lower steadily. But if the Citta reaches purity,
  entire and complete, neither deterioration nor development take place,
  because the conditions that bring about deterioration and development
  have then disappeared from the heart. There remains only complete
  purity -- the heart is Dhamma and Dhamma is the heart. The heart and
  Dhamma are one and the same. From then on there is no more changing
  and altering, and then one has come to the end of the practice of
  Brahmacariya for attaining the higher levels of Dhamma, and has
  completed the task of getting rid of the Kilesas of every sort.

  When he has finished both the task of getting rid of (the Kilesas) and
  that of developing (Dhamma), what else is there to get rid of? There
  is nothing else here, because everything has been got rid of already.
  And there is nothing more he can do to develop higher than this
  because he has reached the highest already. As to deteriorating, there
  is no basis for this to happen because this is "Akuppa Dhamma" --
  unshakable Dhamma -- and there is no way for the Citta to deteriorate.
  The work which ought to be done, which is that of "getting rid of" and
  "developing" has already been done to completion. This kind of Citta
  has nothing mundane (Sammuti) entering and hiding in it -- no time, no
  place, no past or future related to the present such as, for example,
  "now it is like this, in the future what will it be like?" -- this
  sort of thing does not come in this Citta. "This life is like this,
  next life will be like that" -- does not occur in it -- because the
  past and future have come together into existing in the present, and
  have become pure (Parisuddhi) in the one heart. Past and future, which
  used to be associated with the heart, therefore have no meaning at
  all, because the heart is devoid of any meaning [*] such as would lead
  it into all sorts of delusions. If one called this the ultimate Citta
  and the ultimate limit of the path along which the Citta goes, it
  would not be wrong.

        [*] The Thai word used here for "meaning" also has the
            underlying connotation of "conventional acceptance" or
            "definition."


  All that has been said here has been said by way of the principles of
  practice, which are the results that come from the practice of the
  Dhamma. These principles follow the religion of the Buddha which is
  the right way to go, unchanging, in which all Buddhists can be
  confident. There is no room to think with doubt that this Dhamma of
  the Lord Buddha has anything in it which may cause the world to be
  disrupted. Nor can it lead us to disappointment or to loss of faith,
  for where could this be so in all the 84,000 Dhammakkhandhas? [*]
  Nowhere! Therefore there are no problems for those who practise
  accordingly.

        [*] It is traditionally said that there are "84,000
            Dhammakkhandas" -- sayings or verses of Dhamma in the whole
            of the Ti-pitaka.


  The only question that remains is: How to act and practise so as to
  progress in accordance with the principles of the Dhamma of the Lord
  Buddha? This is called the "Svakkhata Dhamma" (rightly taught Dhamma)
  and it is also "Niyyanika Dhamma" -- leading those who practise
  rightly and well to get free steadily from obstacles which are
  obstructions within the heart, until they penetrate through and reach
  Vimutti, ultimate freedom, and then there is nothing left remaining in
  the heart. This is the ultimate and final result that comes from the
  practice of the Dhamma of Buddhism.

  When one has reached this level, the heart and the religion are one
  and the same. The Sasana and the heart cannot then blame or find fault
  with each other. The heart is then genuine, the Sasana is also
  genuine, each is respectively genuine and true. It is thus that the
  Lord Buddha said "Whoever sees the Dhamma sees the Tathagata," meaning
  this Dhamma. Here, the Tathagata is not the bodily form of the Buddha.
  Although this bodily form is one aspect of the Tathagata and means
  that bodily form of the Lord Buddha which is of the same nature as the
  bodies which we all have. In other words, the body is the bodily form
  of the supreme "Buddha" and someone having seen the Lord, having
  saluted, paid homage and Puja to the Lord who delights the eyes and
  the heart, could say that he had seen the Tathagata with his eyes --
  and this may be considered as seeing one kind of Tathagata.

  Another way is when someone recollects the Lord Buddha, the Dhamma,
  and the Sangha with faith and belief, then it may be said that they
  have reached Dhamma or reached the Lord Buddha. Yet another way is
  when someone attains to the level of Sotapanna, Sakadagami or Anagami,
  going on stage by stage, then this may be called seeing the Tathagata
  step by step until they reach the final consummation.

  The true Tathagata is purity of Dhamma and purity of heart so that
  Dhamma and the heart are one and the same and one can find no way to
  separate them and analyse them apart. Wherever the heart is, there the
  Dhamma is, and wherever the Dhamma is, there the Tathagata is. Then it
  can be said "Who sees the Dhamma sees the Tathagata." Seeing in the
  way of practice is like this -- in other words to experience Dhamma at
  the level of Purity by way of the heart following the Lord Buddha, is
  called seeing Dhamma or seeing the Tathagata consummately.

  Then one has no doubts whether the Parinibbana of the Lord Buddha was
  2517 years ago or many aeons ago because all this is relative
  convention (Sammuti) which is the same as the conventions of the world
  everywhere. Thus the texts have recorded where and when the Lord was
  at different times and places to act as a signpost waiting there to
  indicate the time and place of the Lord variously for Buddhists who
  pay homage and have faith in the Lord by doing obeisance and Puja on
  the anniversaries.

  But as far as the true Tathagata which is complete purity of heart, is
  concerned, there is no time and place associated with this at all, and
  for one who is entirely pure, wherever he may be, it is the same as if
  he was before the Lord Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha the whole
  time -- "Akaliko" -- eternally.

  Therefore, please practise these Buddhist teachings (Sasana Dhamma) so
  that they develop in your hearts; which means to say that you will not
  be without the Lord as the Teacher wherever you go and this is the
  same as being before the Master, the Dhamma, and the Sangha at all
  times until you reach "Vimutti" -- freedom within your Citta. Then you
  will know for sure who the Master really is without having any doubts.

  This explanation of Dhamma is, I think, sufficient, so I will end
  here.

                                 * * *


                         Questions and Answers

  Tan Acharn:
  In listening to an explanation of Dhamma, if one tries to remember
  while listening, the "owner" does not gain value from it in the Citta.
  But if one decides to let the Citta gain value from it, the Citta will
  go along with the talk while contemplating it at the same time and it
  should be able to get rid of some Kilesas at that time, and those that
  are got rid of will depend on what happens during the talk. But one
  cannot remember what the teacher talked about.

  In listening to a Dhamma talk in the manner of those who practise,
  generally one is not more interested in remembering what is said than
  in looking at the Citta and the Dhamma which the teacher is explaining
  at that time in order that one may get value while listening. For
  instance, the Citta may gain calm, or some ways of wisdom may then
  arise and get rid of some kinds of Kilesas. Now I will answer
  questions.


  Q1 W1:
  The Lord Buddha was very subtle and when he used words they had
  definite meaning. Why then did he sometimes talk of Citta and
  sometimes of Mano?

  A:
  Citta and Mano are synonymous with each other together with Vinnana,
  and they can be used in place of each other. Why does the world have
  several words derived from the one word "eat" -- thus "Eat," Eating,"
  "Eaten"? [*] The word Citta or Mano is like this and they are used as
  it suits the occasion.

        [*] Tan Acharn said this in English.



  Q2 W2:
  The Citta is not Vinnana Khandha, so surely it is not the same as any
  Vinnana? [*]

        [*] This is a translation of the question as rendered in Thai.
            But the question does not seem to be very meaningful and
            there is some doubt whether this was the original form of
            it.


  A:
  Mano Vinnana equals Patisandhi Vinnana which goes to birth in various
  realms of existence (Bhava).

  The teaching of the Lord Buddha is said to be composed of 84,000
  Dhamma Khandhas [*] which is not much because the Lord Buddha
  summarised (the teaching) making it suitable to the strength of beings
  in the world.

        [*] See footnote above.


  When one is doing practice, knowledge branches out more and more so
  that among those who are doing practice, when they speak to each other
  they can gain a lot more knowledge. But if one has not yet gained
  results from practice, however it is explained it is not likely to be
  of much use.

  The Lord Buddha had experienced more than the others and when the
  Savakas went to speak to him and ask him about knowledge, saying that
  they had come across this, and had had experiences of that kind, the
  Lord knew all about it already and could answer immediately. Because
  the things which happen to each person are different and someone who
  has already had such experiences will understand them and can
  therefore guide them on the way along which he has already gone.


  Q3 W3:
  "Jhana" is not wanted for developing wisdom (Panna) -- how is this?

  A:
  Concerning Jhana, if one does not have the tendencies of character for
  it, there is no need to try to attain it, but if it arises then one
  can use Jhana. Someone who is not energetic will aim to have Jhana
  much more than the path (Magga), fruition (Phala), and Nibbana,
  because Jhana is a small matter compared with Sila, Samadhi and Panna,
  which are the tools to cure all the Kilesas. This is like our own
  native language, which we all know even though we never formally
  learnt it, nor took exams in it, nor gained any degrees in it. We do
  not need any degrees to communicate with each other because just
  knowing our native language is enough for us to speak to each other.

  "Jhana" means to "concentrate intently" -- repeat "Buddho, Buddho,
  Buddho," and it will become Jhana. Jhana is a natural principle, but
  "Jhana" is not essential for developing wisdom, because in
  contemplating form (Rupa) there is "Vitakka" -- which is
  "disentangling those things which one sees," and if this is done in a
  natural way the one who practises can have Jhana, depending on his own
  characteristics, though it may not go in the way that it is usually
  explained. The word "Jhana" interests us Buddhists a great deal even
  though we have hardly had any genuine results of Jhana -- but we tend
  to talk extravagantly about it enough to be annoying!


  Q4 W4:
  Please may I know how to develop calm (Samatha).

  A:
  The training to make one's Citta quiet is Samatha, calm.
  Contemplation, analysing, and branching out step by step, giving rise
  to understanding is wisdom, which accords with one's level of wisdom.


  Q5 W2:
  In developing Samadhi Vipassana there are two ways, are there not?
  Some people say that there is the way of Samatha and some say there is
  the way of Vipassana -- or can one use them alternately?

  A:
  At any time when one wants calm one does Samatha and at any time when
  one contemplates with wisdom so as to arouse the method of analysis by
  examining both externally and internally, it is called Vipassana.


  Q6 W2:
  I feel that it is more difficult to develop wisdom (Panna) than calm
  (Samatha).

  A:
  At those times when one does Samadhi one aims for calm and at those
  times when one does Vipassana one aims for seeing truly with wisdom.
  One should do them at different times and one should not mix them
  together. There are many kinds of work, both easy and difficult, and
  work as done in the world is also like this. With some people it is
  necessary for them to do work that is difficult, but if one is
  bewildered and afraid of difficulties, one will not be able to do any
  work. So when the time comes to do any work one should truly work hard
  and persevere at it until one sees the fruit of that work. If one does
  this one will have the means to bring about the results of work both
  in Samadhi and Vipassana -- it is not beyond one's ability.


  Q7 W2:
  How can one develop one's outlook so as to make one not afraid of
  difficulties?

  A:
  By the training to develop wisdom. When should one do it? One may do
  it anywhere, anytime -- train oneself to think, to consider carefully,
  to meditate to "use one's head." Analyse the elements (dhatu) and
  Khandhas from outside going inward, and analyse those elements and
  Khandhas of oneself which are inside and bring them up for comparison
  with external things until one sees with wisdom that they have the
  same characteristics. If one has already entered Vipassana one will
  know for oneself extensively and this will go on increasing. If one is
  just afraid of difficulties one will meet nothing but difficulties
  which are there in one's heart and they will always be an obstacle to
  one's work, and one will never have an opportunity to do this work.
  This fear of difficulties is a very important Kilesa indeed! Trying
  hard with persistence to oppose the difficulties, is the Path (Magga)
  and this is the tool for curing every kind of Kilesa, so one should
  take interest in it.


  Q8 W2:
  In two or three days time I will go and enter a training course for
  training teachers so as to teach children religion. How can one help
  children to have a wide understanding of religion.

  A:
  There is no obstacle in teaching others which is greater than that of
  teaching oneself. Let us understand //that// before teaching others.
  In teaching religion if one understands it in however gross or subtle
  a way, one is able to teach others in accordance with one's
  understanding. To understand religion by way of the texts is easy, but
  to understand it truly with one's heart is difficult both for oneself
  and others. Therefore the practice to know religion truly is very
  important.


  Q9 W5:
  When one has determined to listen to a talk but cannot remember it
  afterwards -- would you say something about this?

  A:
  When one can remember what was said, what value does one get from it?
  One may answer that one gets the instruction in doing practice. But
  truly speaking, in not being able to remember there is nothing lost
  and furthermore it can bring one valuable results in a different way,
  for the heart gains calm at that time because there is no anxiety
  about remembering. The Dhamma which are retained within the heart one
  will be able to remember, and that which has been heard and understood
  makes a deep impression and results in happiness of heart while one is
  listening. It is comparable to a child eating his food, for the child
  need not know from where the food comes, nor from which factory, for
  while he is eating he gets the taste of it which is satisfying and he
  has taken the food which provides nourishment for his body, keeping it
  fit and well, and this is sufficient.

  There is no need to memorise everything while one is listening, but
  one should compose the heart and let it be knowing within oneself, and
  one should not send it elsewhere at that time. The Citta will then
  receive knowledge in continually following the Dhamma which is being
  explained. Then the results of calm and peace will arise. Or it will
  arouse various ways and means which come to one while one is
  listening. This is what is meant by making gains from listening in the
  way of practice, in the same way as those in the past who practised in
  this manner.


  Q10 W5:
  You said that nothing is lost in not being able to remember. This
  gives one a lot of hope.

  A:
  Listening and taking note of and remembering names and words is of no
  value at all, for all one gets is the names of Dhamma and of the
  Kilesas, but the Kilesas neither diminish in strength nor get less. If
  one listens without remembering but listens following with
  understanding, it will probably get rid of Kilesas all the while and
  even though one cannot remember one will get successful results in the
  way of practice. Because while one listens with mindfulness firmly
  established within one's heart, not sending it out externally, not
  even to the person who is explaining at that moment, and with
  "knowing" limited to oneself, one is likely to be able to understand
  the Dhamma which is being explained better than if one sends the Citta
  out to receive it. Results will then appear steadily to the heart and
  they can reduce and get rid of Kilesas bit by bit every time that one
  listens, until one is able to go past them, as in the time of the
  Buddha when many attained both Magga and Phala while listening.
  Therefore listening to Dhamma is an aspect of practice which is much
  more important than doing the practice on one's own, and those who
  practise have been very interested in it ever since those days.


  After this the Van. Acharn led a short meditation practice for five
  minutes, after which the meeting closed.


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