Vipassana - Yes; Triple Gem - ??

Getting Started

The Five Fetters That Prevent Jhana and Enlightenment

Realistic Goal

A Buddhist's Dilemma: when is it OK to kill?

Buddha-Dhamma or Dhamma-Buddha ?

Period between two Buddhas

Dana, Sila & Bhavana

Meditation

The Samgha (Sangha)

Vipassana and the Triple Gem

Pancanantariya Kamma

Lay Member of the Sangha ?

Pros and Cons of Right or Wrong Viewers

Hell Realm in this very world!

Was Jesus a Buddhist?

Sangha, the Third Refuge

Meditation Methods

A Question of ' I '

The Mudras

Quantity or Quality in Meditation Practice ?

DISCUSSION TOPIC NO. 19
27-12-99

Subject: Lunar Statistics

       Ko Maung Maung wrote:

       Dear truth seekers, There is always one thing I am not clear about the Buddhism. I was reading pali text on some Buddha's ideas about the cosmology. What I read was astounding. Buddha appeared to have said that circumference of the moon and sun are 48 "yojanas" and 50 respectively. And one yojana is approximately 8 miles according to Indian geologist. If one or more of those facts are true, I think we Buddhist have a huge problem. From scientific studies, they suggested that the moon has the size of a quarter of the earth and the sun is a million times bigger than the earth. Imagine the earth being the little ball at the tip of your pen and the sun being a medium orange. what Buddha mentioned was the moon is 98% of the sun. Apparently the measurements from both sizes are woefully way off. I solemnly swear that neither do I have any intention to argue nor contradict the enlightened one's brilliancy in infinite wisdom and the absolute truth of Dhamma, but I still like to clear some cloud fogging in my head. I'd be glad to hear your responses, so please bless me.

        Metta, Ko Maung Maung

Discussion:

Subject: Lunar Statistics

'Myanmarman' posted on 28-12-99

       Dear Ko Maung Maung,

       I sincerely believe that the figures you quote are not correct. I would be grateful if you could mention the Reference. The circumference of 50 yojanas ( 400 to 650 miles) for the Moon is too small. Compare it to the following numbers which appear in many dhamma books.

• Height of Mount Meru ('Myint mo Taung')=68,000 yojanas
• Distance between each Apaya abode=15,000 yojanas
• Distance between each Deva planes=42,000 yojanas
• Distance between each Brahma Planes=5,508,000 yojanas
• Distance from human realm to the highest Brahma plane=71,856,000 yojanas
• Earth Thickness=240,000 yojanas, i.e, 240 times the current figure of 8000 miles.

       These numbers seem to be too big to digest. But who knows? Can anyone suggest on the best approach to interpret these numbers?

       'Myanmarman'

Subject: Lunar Statistics

Ko Maung Maung posted on 29-12-99

       Dear Myanmarman,

       Here is the reference; the Late Venerable Ashin Janakabhivamsa's "Ko Khint Abhidhamma" p 304. 1995. pb Merchandise lim. It clearly says that the Sun has 'Awunn' (circumference) of 50 "yojanas" and 49 for the moon. This is my biggest concern. Those figures seem extremely small for actual sizes. And I know the sun is much bigger than the moon. Moreover,You and I have many times witnessed how big the moon is on television, so that it becomes questionable. Many other Pali texts I have read also suggested the same size too. Thank you for your response.

       Metta, Maung Maung

Subject: Lunar Statistics

Venerable Bhikkhu Kumara posted on 2nd January 2000

       Did you get this info from the Tipitaka or from the commentaries. If it's from the commentaries (which I think it is), we need not pay much attention to it, since the commentaries has been proven to contain contradictions.

Subject: Lunar Statistics

Sandaruwani Abeysiri posted on 3rd January 2000

       Not everything in the Pali texts are purely the Buddha's words - people who have written the texts have added things and when reading translations of the texts one must remember that people have interpreted things in their own way. I cannot believe that the Buddha having said that He would not dwell on the universe would go into as much detail as you have mentioned with the yojanas (as that His aim in teaching people is to make them realise the Truth).

       However I do know that from time to time in the texts He has mentioned about solar-sytems and elliptical planetary orbits which is well ahead of His time era in science, because it was not till Johannes Kepler that planatery orbits were clearly percieved and equations developed about their motion. The only way I can think of solving the puzzle of the sun and moon is that the yojanas scale is not an average scale like metres and feet but a logarithmic scale.

       With metta, Sandaruwani Abeysiri

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DISCUSSION TOPIC NO. 20
17-12-99

Subject: THE FIVE FETTERS THAT PREVENT JHANA AND ENLIGHTENMENT

       Dr. Tin Htut wrote:

       Dear Dhamma friends, I am posting to you the following information as I thought they would be useful to know. It is a rare opportunity for us to have come across this understanding and may I persuade you all to start the practice if you haven't done so.

       There are five hindrances that can prevent one from attaining Jhana or enlightenment despite every effort a yogi puts into the practice of Vipassana. They are as follows:

1. The grave kammas. Those who have killed their parents (matricide & patricide); killed an Arahat; causing a physical injury to Buddha; causing a schism among Sanga; and sexual assault to a Bhikkhuni (nuns).
2. The wrong viewers. Those who do not believe in Kamma or the laws of cause and effect.
3. Improper resultants. Those who have inborn defects like mentally retarded persons, indeterminate sex, doubtful and undecided personalities, schizophrenics etc.
4. Wrong doers to Ariyas. Those who have intentionally done wrong towards Noble persons such as Sotapans, Sadagams, Anagams and Arahats by speaking ill of them. This sin can be forgiven if confessed.
5. Sinners of the Order. Those who have committed seven grave sins of the Order of Sangas (Parajika of the Vinaya).

THE FIVE UTMOST DIFFICULTIES (DULLABHA)

1. It is hard to encounter with the Sasana . The teachings of Buddha cannot last forever and it is a blessing to encounter with the Sasana. The present Sasana of Gotama Buddha is believed only to last for 5000 years and it has been already half way through the Sasana. The next Buddha may not appear until half a billion years later.
2. It is hard to encounter with a person who can explain the four Noble Truths.
3. It is hard to posses faculties to perceive the Dhamma. If a person has inborn defects, the Dhamma is impossible to apprehend. It is also difficult for a person to encounter with Dhamma if the person has no desire to listen or read Dhamma.
4. It is hard for one to practice Vipassana or have a desire to become enlightened.
5. It is of most difficult to be able to venerate the Buddha by following his teachings and become enlightened.

       With Metta, Tin Htut

       P.S: REFERENCES: The information on the Five Fetters was cited from "How to Live as Good Buddhist" pages 495-496. It was published in Burmese by the Department of Propogation of the Sasana, Burma in 1991. The citation of Five Dullabhas was from a recorded discourse given by the late Ven. Mogok Sayadaw on 3/9/1958 at Aung Mingalar monastery, Amarapura, Burma. The original Pali sources for the citations were not mentioned in the references, unfortunately.

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DISCUSSION TOPIC NO. 19
04-12-99

Subject: "Realistic Goal"

       Dr. Tin Htut wrote:

       Dear Dhamma Friends,

        Most of those who are reading this correspondence may believe in life after death and may not want a rebirth in one of the nether existences. We are aware that a life of animals, which is the nearest example that we can perceive, is full of dangers and miseries. Life of Petas (ghosts), Asuras (deities, demons etc.) and hell beings may be reflected upon from stories and Jatakas from the scriptures which are as well, daunting and miserable. We know very well that life as a human is full of ups and downs and is very unpredictable.

       We often lose our memory of the previous existence and may prone to do evil deeds if we do not come to understand the Dhamma. It is well understood that a noble state, of which Sotapanna, is the lowest goal that one should aim to be free from a rebirth in a nether world. This goal, however, is difficult to accomplish although it is not totally impossible. It needs a right combination of effort, concentration (Samadhi), mindfulness (Sati) and reflection to develop spiritual cleansing, right view and equanimity. It may be easier said than done as we, humans, are full of greed, hatred and delusion (Moha).

       This wisdom is often acquired in a hard way. We can learn Dhamma from various sources and come to understand partially, but to experience it personally may be difficult. Without this knowledge, it is very insecure for us to die and reborn in the Samsara. During the times of the Buddha quite a few people had said to have developed wisdom by just hearing a discourse. It was very fortunate for those people to develop a noble state in an easy way. Parami or accumulated heritage of good Kamma is necessary for this sort of easy way to enlightenment. It can only be achieved during the time of a Buddha. Therefore, we need to encounter the next Buddha if we do not have an ability to become enlightened in this present life.

       What would be the realistic way to attain this goal? If I may present my view, I would try to attain a security for a rebirth in a Deva world (heaven), preferably in Tusita, the realm of the next Buddha and made an Adhitthanna, a vow to meet the next buddha. To accomplish this goal we will need to purify ourselves physically by taking at least five precepts, and purify spiritually by developing Bhavana. We need to find a suitable teacher that can teach us a suitable method of meditation to obtain an insight wisdom that is equivalent to Udayabbaya nana. It is the insight into arising and dissolving of mind and matter and is characterised by well demarcated hallmarks. It can be quite easy to accomplish and is the most realistic goal that I can think of. If one has reached this status, it is said to be equivalent to Sula Sotapanna (the lesser state) and would be assured of a rebirth in a good destination for at least one life.

       How long does one need to wait for the next Buddha? According to the evidence in the literature a period that is equal to seven evolution cycles of mankind is required for the next buddha to appear in this world. In terms of earth years one can speculate that it would be about half a billion years (576,000,000) which is the lifespan of a Deva in Tusita. The next Buddha is now in Tusita and therefore, it will require some half a billion years for the Buddha Mettaya to appear in this world. Therefore, a rebirth as a Deva or as a Brahma is the only mean for a safe destination to enlightenment. If we are reborn as humans the destination may not be as safe as the former since life of humans is unpredictable and is very short. We may land in the states of deprivation during this long span in-between two buddhas.

       Is it scientifically plausible for earth to have undergone such evolutions? According to scientists, this universe was formed some 15 billion years ago and our solar system was born some 4.6 billion years back. The earth was believed to have inhabited with first life forms as far as 2.5 to 3.8 billion years ago. The present human race Homo Sapiens, was thought to have evolved during 5 to 8 million years. There is archaeological evidence that humans have inhabited the Indian subcontinent, the place of Buddhas, less than 2 million years. If a period in-between two Buddhas is approximately half a billion years, one may argue that where has all the evidence of pervious civilisations gone. Scientists admitted that they knew little about the very earliest days of the Earth. It was mentioned that during the 4.6 billion years of its existence, the continents had shifted continually, many of the oldest rocks had disintegrated, and rivers had moved whole mountain ranges into the sea. They claimed that much of the record had been wiped clean. The Buddhist literature also mentioned that the layers of earth became seven Yojanas (approx. 84 miles) thick in-between two Buddhas, and evidence of earlier civilisations might have been lost. Therefore, the plausibility of numerous civilisations of the past could not be ruled out.

        With Metta Tin Htut

Subject: "Realistic Goal"

Dr. M M Lwin replied on 8th December, 1999

       Dear Dhamma Friends,

       In reply to Dr. Tin Htut's posting (Realistic Goal?), I have doubts about the Deva Realm as a suitable `Transit' Stop to meet the future Buddha to get Enlightened. It is because one has to satisfy so many 'If's to make the plan work.

       (1)Even if one does all good acts there is no guaranteed route to the Deva Realm, as the final outcome will depend on the balance between good and bad deeds committed in his whole life. Evan a Cula-Sotapan may be reborn in the Human plane where he starts.

       (2) Even after being reborn as a Deva, over-indulgence in sensuous pleasure may lead to the Nether world or Apaya Realm for a considerable length of time, and may get lost in the Black Hole of Samsara. Talking about sensual pleasure, it was said that the devas were like petas as they were never satisfied and their tanha was insatible. So, there is greater opportunity as a human to advance to any degree of an Ariya state which is a security against rebirth in lower worlds.

       (3) Even if all systems are working and the timing is deadly accurate to land back on this Earth at the time of the Future Buddha, there can still be some hiccups: (a) Geographically, one may be thousands of miles away from the Buddha and His Disciples as in the days of Gotama Buddha without modern means of transport, (b) Spiritually, in the wrong Camp, and (c) Intellectually-handicapped to understand the Teachings, among others.

       So there seems to be no sure short cuts and the traditional approach remains the best, i.e., to strive for complete liberation in this very life utilising all available resources, Dana, Sila, Samadhi, Wisdom, and manoeuvring the Bhavana space module and leave the rest to the Law of Kamma, Sabbe Satta Kammassaka.

       With Metta, Maung.M.Lwin

Subject: "Realistic Goal"

Jerry Douglas, M.D., wrrote on 16th December, 1999

       Good to hear from you again, but it sounds like you are trying to predict your own future. You have stated that you will not achieved a noble status in this lifetime... but how would one know? The only moment we have opportunity to change is this one. As one cannot change the past, one cannot predict the future. All we can do is our practice, and the blossoms and fruit of that practice will come. It may not be in this lifetime, but it will come. With our eyes open to today, maybe some fruit of the practice will come today... we cannot know. Life is moment to moment... the future takes care of itself.

Subject: "Realistic Goal"

Thiri Kay Khine replied on 16th December, 1999

       For all of us its not a question of wether we'll attain nibbana in this life, or we have any paramis to attain, its a question of collecting the paramis. When they are full the practice will bear fruits quickly, if not think of it as fulfilling the necessary paramis. I'm of the opinion that we're of the calibre of attaining the nibbana in this very life.[excuse me for my over confidence].Buddha left us 40 kinds of meditation each suitable for different kinds of people. So now it comes to finding the right method. So Dr Htut, if theres a will there is a way but first you must have the time and patience.

Subject: "Realistic Goal"

Dr. Tin Htut replied on 16th December, 1999

       Dear Dhamma Friends,

       In the last month I have posted to you my view on the realistic goal of the Vipassana practice. As it is difficult to achieve a noble status I started to lose confidence in my practice of Vipassana. I was inclined to look for an alternative way of liberation from suffering which might be feasible. I suggested that an encounter with the next Buddha would probably be an easier way to attain a noble status after listening to a discourse of the Buddha, and that a rebirth in Tusita Deva realm would ensure the encounter with the next Mettaya Buddha.

       Dr Lwin pointed out that a rebirth in Deva realm was not assured and it was quite difficult to get the right timing to meet the next Buddha. Instead, he suggested that a rebirth as a human was more likely to get enlightened and the human realm is the better place to strife for liberation as Devas have more pleasure than pain and may not appreciate impermanence.

       It is partly true, but not quite right, for it is possible to get enlightened in a Deva realm if a Yogi had practised Vipassana in the past existence. I have recently listened to a recorded discourse by the late Venerable Mogok Sayadaw which was expounded on 2/9/58 at Aung Mingalar monastery in Amarapura, Burma. It was an excerpt from the Catukanipa Anguttra Nikaya of the Sutta Pitika. It was about the four results of persons who had practised Vipassana but did not attain a noble status as a human. The Mogok Sayadaw assured that those who had fulfilled the four conditions in the past life and died before attaining a noble status, they were guaranteed a rebirth in a Deva realm with a subsequent realisation of Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta and liberation.

       They were the Buddha's words and one can take them for granted. The four conditions are as follows:

• (1) The person must have listened to a discourse about the realities of existence, Anicca (impermanence), Dukkha (suffering) and Anatta (void of self or ego or immortal soul).
• (2) The person must have learnt about these realities and can recite them verbally. It is known as Cutamaya panna or acquired knowledge.
• (3) The person must have reflected these realities during Vipassana meditation. It is Cintamaya panna or knowledge acquired through analytic inquest.
• (4) The person must have witnessed the arising and dissolving phenomenon of meditation objects and have perceived the concept of Anatta (impersonal). Vipassana nana (Uddayabbaya nana) or knowledge or insight into the absence of immortal soul. This would be equivalent to a Cula Sotapanna.

       These persons may not have experienced the realities of existence through the Bhavanamaya panna and have not reached the noble status as a human. When they die they will be reborn in one of the six Deva realms (heavens) and will attain either Sotapanna, Sakadagam, Anagam or Arahat in the following ways.

• 1. Yogi (meditator) who had fulfilled the four conditions and died with the reflection of the three realities of existence, Acicca, Dukkha and Anatta, would be reborn as a Deva immediately, but the continuity of the last thought would enable the Yogi to reflect upon these realities before the Yogi realised that he or she was a Deva. This reflection will result in a noble status immediately and a teacher is not required to assist him for liberation.
• 2. Yogi who had fulfilled the four conditions, but died without the reflection of the realities would be reborn as a Deva. The Yogi will be assisted to realise these realities by the Devas who know his thought and will persuade him to reflect upon them. The Yogi will reach a noble status there and then with a little help.
• 3. Yogi who had fulfilled the four conditions, but died without reflection of the realities would be reborn as a Deva. The Yogi will attain a noble status within a week as a Deva after attending a meeting of Devas and hearing a discourse. The meeting is held weekly and is attended by Devas of all six heavens and discourses are given by liberated ones.
• 4. Yogi who died in a similar way and was reborn as a Deva would be approached by his Dhamma friends and would persuade him to continue with the practice.

       As the time scale of Deva realms is much longer than that of humans, those who died earlier would become Devas only a matter of few hours. The colleagues who had practised together as humans will help out with the realisation of Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta before the Yogi absorbed in the sensual pleasures of the Devas. Although it is true that the Deva realms are full of sensual pleasures and no pain, a Yogi can become liberated in the above ways. It is said to be very much easier to become liberated as a Deva provided that the Yogi had already practised Vipassana in the past life. This is very assuring and has uplifted my confidence in the practice. We do not necessarily need to encounter with the next Buddha for the liberation, but to strive hard with the Vipassana practice.

       With Metta, Tin Htut

Subject: "Realistic Goal"

Jerry Douglas replied on 16th December, 1999

        Dear Tin, Good to hear from you again, but it sounds like you are trying to predict your own future. You have stated that you will not achieve a noble status in this lifetime... but how would one know? The only moment we have opportunity to change is this one. As one cannot change the past, one cannot predict the future. All we can do is our practice, and the blossoms and fruit of that practice will come. It may not be in this lifetime, but it will come. With our eyes open to today, maybe some fruit of the practice will come today... we cannot know. Life is moment to moment... the future takes care of itself.

       Metta, Jerry

Subject: "Realistic Goal"

Dr. Tin Htut replied on 16th December, 1999

       Dear Jerry,

       Thanks for the message. I did not mean to say that I would never reach a noble status in this life, but it looked quite difficult for me. I know my drawbacks and my abilities and I have attempted once to achieve my goal without success. I will go to Amaravati monastery this Christmas and will practise seriously again. I have seen many Yogis and monks who practised seriously yet they did not achieve a noble status and I lost confidence in myself.

        I know very well that it could not be easily achieved by informal practice (part time practice as a layman at home). I have family responsibilities and a full time practice is quite impossible at present. I was born as a Buddhist, went to a Catholic school, but I was a free thinker and used to have doubts in after-life. I believed in equality and practised humanity and kindness towards all. However, I have committed killing of animals as a student and as part of my job. I have barely kept the five precepts except for adultery in my earlier days. When I came to know that there is life-after-death after I came across with strange encounters I started to look for answers. I found that Buddhism is the only answer and I have practised it seriously. I had even given up a permanent and prestigious job in Cambridge since it involved with killing and took up a research post which is rather insecure.

       After practising Vipassana for nearly five years I had considerable success, but failed to reach a noble status. Then I started to panic after having a thought that if I died now and reborn as a human I would have to start all over again as I would lose the present understanding that I have accumulated. Who knows that I might not commit serious unwholesome actions before coming to realise the Dhamma again. There are some conditions for a person to perceive Dhamma and become a noble person. So I was very concerned about having to lose what I have already understood and did not want a rebirth where the knowledge of the past was lost. I did not come across any assurance before, for a Yogi who had practised Vipassana seriously but died without reaching a noble status. The sermon of the Venerable Mogok Sayadaw was very encouraging for me and I thought I would share it with my Dhamma friends who were in similar conditions as myself. This assurance enables me to continue my practice without having concerns for the future. I hope it will also encourage others to practise Vipassana as the goal is realistic and is not far fetched.

       With Metta Tin Htut

Subject: "Realistic Goal"

Jerry replied on 16th December, 1999

       I can understand your discouragement... after all it is the hindrance of doubt to its extreme. Remember it as a hindrance. Sometimes I wonder if the hindrances are at their utmost just before we make progress. Have others experienced this? I wish you well in your practice, but even more so, freedom from inner and outer harm. May you be happy, May you find perfect peace... Jerry

Subject: "Realistic Goal"

John Lewis replied on 16th December, 1999

Subject: "Realistic Goal"

Dr. Tin Htut replied on 16th December, 1999

       Dear Jerry, You are right. There is always a fetter of one way or another if one has a potential to progress. I have the experience in the past. It is hard to know the opposition's tactics. Mara acts in many ways! With Metta

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DISCUSSION TOPIC NO. 18
29-11-99

Subject: A Buddhist' Dilemma: "When is it OK to kill?"

       Melvin Lewis wrote:

       A good Buddhist will keep the Five Basic Precepts that include refraining from killing another living being. When we were young, we were dynamic all round and the reaction time was also very good too. You will remember what you did when a mosquito landed on your skin and sucked your blood out instantly.

       We must have killed numerous ants and other insects that bothered us in those days. As we grow older, we tend to appreciate more of the meaning of life. And our records improve all the time, in not killing other living creatures. My immediate environment has become a peaceful world until I had an un-invited guest one summer day. A wandering pregnant mouse must have entered my house through the opened kitchen door and managed to establish a small colony inside.

        I tried various humane mouse-traps and even an ultrasonic wave device, imported from the States. I did not catch any. But, I did manage to trap some when they were cornered to take shelter at the base of a toaster which proved to be an effective trap for some small and inexperienced mice. I believe they can be potential health risk. But so far I am unable to evict them completely by gentle means.

        As I seem to be losing the battle, various options are under consideration.

1. Make the mice infertile by feeding them oral contraceptives. But I am not sure how to get these; from the pet shop or the Vets or the Doctor?
2. Adopt a hungry and homeless cat as a domestic pet, pretending all the time, that I am offering shelter to another being, and lastly,
3. forceful evacuation of these miserable beings from the animal world by chemical means, i.e., Poisoning.

        Now may I have the opinion of the members of this prestigious forum? I shall appreciate your practical advice on takling this 'real' problem, the technical as well as the spiritual sides of it, without creating any evil kamma in the process.

       And one last question. What should I do if I come across some newly born baby mice which are not expected to live on their own if removed. Who will be responsible for their premature death if they are seperated from their mother?

       With Metta to all (except those tiny creatures at the moment)

Discussion:

Subject: A Buddhist' Dilemma: "When is it OK to kill?"

Dr. Tin Htut replied on 30th November, 1999

       Dear Melvin, Welcome aboard to our discussion group.

       To answer to your question, it is never right to kill a creature. However, you may need to weigh the pros and cons to justify such an action. Killing or injuring any sentient creature will one way or another give rise to a bad Kamma. It may take effect sooner or later in the Samsara.

       The motive involved in killing is the main decisive factor. Lay persons, especially those have not yet reached a noble status may never be free from a complete abstinence from killing. One may need to kill for varoius reasons, like those who are engaged in their profession or in self defence. If a situation calls for it and if there is no other option, one may have to do it.

       There are various ways of solving your problem.

       1) Use Metta and Aditthana (a vow) to slove your problem in a humane way. You may set your life trap again, but this time your motive must not be to get rid of the vermin. You must cultivate in your mind that you are just trying to help them out to transfer them to another suitable place (woods etc.) where they can survive on their own. Make a vow that if your motive is pure, may the vermin be removed without any harm done. Use a good bait and your Metta.

       2) You may hire some professional pest controllers to take care of your problem. In this case you are only helping them killed indirectly and if your motive is not to get them killed, but to solve your problem, it may lessen your bad Kamma.

       3) If you are really ambitious in purifying yourself to obtain a goal, try to be indifferent to the problem. Give them food and lure them to stay away from your home. They will never cause a realm problem except for a nuisance.

        May you be able to solve your problem.

       With Metta, Tin Htu, Sheffield

Subject: A Buddhist' Dilemma: "When is it OK to kill?"

'Ho' replied on 30th November, 1999

Subject: A Buddhist' Dilemma: "When is it OK to kill?"

Dr. Nay Dee (London) replied on 3rd December, 1999

Subject: A Buddhist' Dilemma: "When is it OK to kill?"

Sandaruwani Abeysiri on 5th December, 1999

Subject: A Buddhist' Dilemma: "When is it OK to kill?"

Chemical@coffey-geo.com replied on 6th December, 1999

       So far no-one had mentioned ultra-sonic devices. I imagine metta practice would make them feel most welcome but maybe I don't fully appreciate metta. I have heard of mixed success with ultra sonic and high pitched sound devices. Some devices may be more effective than others. My kamma is so bad already my only hope is for enlightenment in this lifetime.

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